I like the Gnome menu the best but the best launcher is the one in Vista. you just type a letter or two and you’re there… no menu’s needed. 95% I don’t even *look* at the menu to open apps.
It’s funny because I was just writing an article on my site about this very same topic. LOL!
I like the Gnome menu the best but the best launcher is the one in Vista. you just type a letter or two and you’re there… no menu’s needed. 95% I don’t even *look* at the menu to open apps.
It’s funny because I was just writing an article on my site about this very same topic. LOL!
What puts the Vista menu above the SLED menu then? It does the same thing, after all. A bit more complete too, if they really do interface with beagle completely.
But really, if we’re looking for the best application launcher, then clearly Katapult/Quicksilver takes the cake.
I like the Gnome menu the best but the best launcher is the one in Vista. you just type a letter or two and you’re there… no menu’s needed. 95% I don’t even *look* at the menu to open apps.
It’s funny because I was just writing an article on my site about this very same topic. LOL!
What puts the Vista menu above the SLED menu then? It does the same thing, after all. A bit more complete too, if they really do interface with beagle completely.
But really, if we’re looking for the best application launcher, then clearly Katapult/Quicksilver takes the cake.
The SLED menu is too damn big considering Vista’s menu holds so much more stuff. I’ll have to install it and play with it a bit but Vista’s menu also searches files, internet history, email, favorites etc. There’s also the option to have everything on the right appear as menus for quick access (like to the control panel applets). vista’s search is also adaptive. For example, by default typing “comp” into the search box would bring up the computer folder first and the computer management (where you format disks and stuff) second. Because I never use the search box to access the computer folder (it’s on the desktop and elsewhere in the menu) vista will give me the computer management application first… because I access it all the time.
quicksilver has some nice features but it is not intuitive at all. By default, any change in your typing speed causes it to lose the current search results. So if you type in “system” because you’re looking for system preferences then you can’t just survey the results and type in “preferences” a couple seconds later. FYI, typinfg in system brings you to the system folder. the results are not adaptive and aren’t even targeted for applications. There’s no reason that the system folder should show up before system preferences. I love the browsing feature but it’s done badly. If I type in something and misspell it then you can’t hit delete because it will erase everything you typed not just the last letter. Say you type in “iC”. Well it gives you iCal which is to be expected but the flyout menu has ichat, idvd, imovie, etc. It has the whole damn applciations folder. What if I was looking for a document that started with the letters “iC”?
There’s no grouping of results, it brings back way too many irrelevant files (like system files and crap)… I could go on and on but it’s not much better than Spotlight and in many ways it’s worse.
Outside of the fact that the items on the right side of the start menu have no icons and the fact that only certian folders can be displayed there… Vista’s method is damn near perfect. It’s much better than Quicksilver, Gnome, Spotlight, the dock etc.
The SLED menu is too damn big considering Vista’s menu holds so much more stuff.
Seems like that would make it easier to hit the appropriate target.
I’ll have to install it and play with it a bit but Vista’s menu also searches files, internet history, email, favorites etc.
If the SLED search field works like, say, the GNOME Deskbar applet, then it will also do that.
There’s also the option to have everything on the right appear as menus for quick access (like to the control panel applets). vista’s search is also adaptive. For example, by default typing “comp” into the search box would bring up the computer folder first and the computer management (where you format disks and stuff) second. Because I never use the search box to access the computer folder (it’s on the desktop and elsewhere in the menu) vista will give me the computer management application first… because I access it all the time.
I have no idea if SLED has adaptive capabilities--but if it’s modeled after the GNOME Deskbar, then it will.
quicksilver has some nice features but it is not intuitive at all. By default, any change in your typing speed causes it to lose the current search results. So if you type in “system” because you’re looking for system preferences then you can’t just survey the results and type in “preferences” a couple seconds later.
IIRC you can, but you have to use a keyboard combo to do it.
FYI, typinfg in system brings you to the system folder. the results are not adaptive and aren’t even targeted for applications. There’s no reason that the system folder should show up before system preferences.
Apparently it does give adaptive results--I just typed in ‘System’ and the default option was to launch System Preferences. Of, course, I’m also using an ancient version of Quicksilver on Panther.
I love the browsing feature but it’s done badly. If I type in something and misspell it then you can’t hit delete because it will erase everything you typed not just the last letter. Say you type in “iC”. Well it gives you iCal which is to be expected but the flyout menu has ichat, idvd, imovie, etc. It has the whole damn applciations folder.
I get ‘Launch iCal’ as the default option, with iChat and the iCalAlarmScheduler script as the next two options. The fourth is the ‘Image Capture’ application.
What if I was looking for a document that started with the letters “iC”?
Unless it changed in recent versions, Quicksilver is supposed to be, primarily, an application launcher.
There’s no grouping of results, it brings back way too many irrelevant files (like system files and crap)… I could go on and on but it’s not much better than Spotlight and in many ways it’s worse.
The advantage is, of course, that it *doesn’t* return much other than applications. It’s very focused on launching applications, which is a good trait for an application launcher to have.
Outside of the fact that the items on the right side of the start menu have no icons and the fact that only certian folders can be displayed there… Vista’s method is damn near perfect.
I can think of some improvements--making it larger would be a good start. Perhaps having it preview movies and images in the icons, like Nautilus does. Make it more customizable, and add discrete groups.
It’s much better than Quicksilver, Gnome, Spotlight, the dock etc.
I disagree. GNOME’s solution of Menu+Deskbar is, IMO, a better option. No reason to have search functionality built into the ‘start menu’. Just put it in a little panel widget so I don’t have to invoke the menu to search for something.
I disagree. GNOME’s solution of Menu+Deskbar is, IMO, a better option. No reason to have search functionality built into the ‘start menu’. Just put it in a little panel widget so I don’t have to invoke the menu to search for something.
there’s no reason not to have it there. Search functionality in the start menu further extends the philosophy of the start menu… you launch nearly everything from there. It’s an abstraction that gives you the most important stuff. Having the search box separate just takes up extra space on your taskbar/toolbar/desktop.
I disagree. GNOME’s solution of Menu+Deskbar is, IMO, a better option. No reason to have search functionality built into the ‘start menu’. Just put it in a little panel widget so I don’t have to invoke the menu to search for something.
On Tiger it doesn’t. typing in “sys” gives you keychain, system preferences, some random thing in system services, and then the system.framwork folder.
I disagree. GNOME’s solution of Menu+Deskbar is, IMO, a better option. No reason to have search functionality built into the ‘start menu’. Just put it in a little panel widget so I don’t have to invoke the menu to search for something.
Re-read the quote. Sometimes it takes you to the applications folder and sometimes it return everything… it’s kind of random in how it does that and there’s no grouping to separate the two.
------
At best, Gnome+Deskbar is trying to emulate what vista does perfectly. The results are grouped, sorted, adaptive, and fast. you can find any file or folder on the disk or any application. The key combo is dead easy (just one button) and it’s easier to use. As a menu (aka using the mouse not the keyboard) Gnome has it licked. Vista applications are put into groups by function (Productivity, multimedia etc.) and gnome separates system from the list for easy and quick access but I’m a keyboard user so that doesn’t matter much to me.
Also the QL bar in Vista sets kleyboard shortcuts for every item. The first item to the left is win+1 the second is win+2 and so on. You can even quicxkly access the taskbar and it’s thumbnails by hitting win+t.
Gnome simply isn’t as usable from the keyboard and definitely isn’t as fast.
I don’t like any of these very much, but I would give GNOME the edge over the others. Here’s why I don’t like these menus:
-Most of them just take up too much screen space.
-Performing searches in order to open applications or documents is a waste of time to me.
-None of these menus depict the applications’ actual locations in the filesystem. I don’t like having that extra layer of abstraction obscuring where everything really is.
Of course, my own suggestion is the Mac OS 9 Apple Menu, or FruitMenu.
For people who use mice, it’s faster to have the search bar on the panel than in a menu. For keyboard users too, since you could invoke the search with one keboard combo anyway.
Search functionality in the start menu further extends the philosophy of the start menu… you launch nearly everything from there. It’s an abstraction that gives you the most important stuff. Having the search box separate just takes up extra space on your taskbar/toolbar/desktop.
I suppose that would be a concern on Windows, where you only have a little panel space.
On Tiger it doesn’t. typing in “sys” gives you keychain, system preferences, some random thing in system services, and then the system.framwork folder.
That’s stupid. It sounds like they tried to integrate it with Spotlight.
Re-read the quote. Sometimes it takes you to the applications folder and sometimes it return everything… it’s kind of random in how it does that and there’s no grouping to separate the two.
I assume you’re talking about Quicksilver again? Remember, I only have experience with the old Quicksilver. That didn’t happen in older versions.
At best, Gnome+Deskbar is trying to emulate what vista does perfectly.
SLED is try to mimic vista, but the GNOME+Deskbar solution doesn’t seem particularly close to Vista. Deskbar is modeled after Google’s Deskbar app on Windows, and the GNOME menus are fairly different from the Windows Start Menu.
The results are grouped, sorted, adaptive, and fast.
Just as they are with the Deskbar.
you can find any file or folder on the disk or any application. The key combo is dead easy (just one button) and it’s easier to use.
You can do the same with the Deskbar, though afaik it doesn’t have a keyboard combo yet.
As a menu (aka using the mouse not the keyboard) Gnome has it licked. Vista applications are put into groups by function (Productivity, multimedia etc.) and gnome separates system from the list for easy and quick access but I’m a keyboard user so that doesn’t matter much to me.
For a keyboard user, any overlapping window manager is a waste of time. Though you still haven’t explained why the Vista menu is better for keyboard than GNOME is. Most of the features you’ve talked about are pretty universal to all indexed search interfaces.
Also the QL bar in Vista sets kleyboard shortcuts for every item. The first item to the left is win+1 the second is win+2 and so on. You can even quicxkly access the taskbar and it’s thumbnails by hitting win+t.
There’s no quicklaunch bar in GNOME. Application launchers are independent, and can’t really be assigned a keyboard combo automatically. Though you could manually assign keyboard combos if you wanted.
I’m wondering, how does that automatic assignment handle application uninstallation? What happens if you uninstall an application with an icon in the middle of the quicklaunch bar. Does it reassign keyboard combos to everything after it?
Gnome simply isn’t as usable from the keyboard and definitely isn’t as fast.
While there are certainly better environments for keyboard users (Ion jumps immediately ot mind), I wouldn’t call GNOME unusable from the keyboard. Also, why do you consider Vista’s searching faster? Beagle is pretty quick, if you aren’t having to fallback on the sqlite backend (most people don’t, these days).
That would be an issue if these were tear-off menus, but not for this sort of menu--why would you have the menu open, but be manipulating something else? As soon as you shift focus to something else, the menus disappear.
-Performing searches in order to open applications or documents is a waste of time to me.
I thought that as well, until I started using it. It’s much faster than a mouse if you were using the keyboard already.
-None of these menus depict the applications’ actual locations in the filesystem. I don’t like having that extra layer of abstraction obscuring where everything really is.
That would be an issue if these were tear-off menus, but not for this sort of menu--why would you have the menu open, but be manipulating something else? As soon as you shift focus to something else, the menus disappear.
I don’t see why it’s necessary. It’s not a huge deal to have your application launcher fill up much of the screen for a few seconds, but it’s better not to have it do that. I usually have a lot of things open, and it’s just easier to keep my train of thought when things aren’t constantly being obscured and revealed because of an oversized menu.
I thought that as well, until I started using it. It’s much faster than a mouse if you were using the keyboard already.
I see some use for it, and I’ve played around with Quicksilver (the best implementation in my opinion), but having something on the first or second level of a menu to click on is easier for me than opening a menu, typing something, and picking a result. I probably use the mouse a lot more than you do, though. Unless I’m posting on a forum, typing in an address, or renaming something, I don’t touch it a whole lot.
Why is that disadvantagious?
I would rather deal with actual files than a folder full of shortcuts. It’s the same reason why I thought Windows 3.1’s interface was pathetic: adding too many abstractions just makes things more confusing. Ever wonder how many Windows users have tried to delete programs by removing their entries from the Start menu? I’ve seen it more than a few times. When I’m in the Apple menu with my Applications folder showing, I know that everything I’m looking at is the actual file being launched, and I can just let go of the mouse over a folder to go into the Finder and mess with something.
typing in “sys” gives you keychain, system preferences, some random thing in system services, and then the system.framwork folder.
Yes, metadata search is great until it isn’t, eh?
Can you show me a screenshot, Kuaidang, of Spotlight returning the “system.framwork” folder?
When I type “sys” and don’t have to press RETURN and hope I’ve typed enough characters to get the results I want (I can see them instantly as I type, which is great), my Top Hit is System Preferences. I don’t get Keychain. I don’t get system.framework either.
With Spotlight, you have the option of ordering your results how you want and you can easily tell it to ignore entire volumes or folders, if you want. Some people want to search their system folders, others don’t. It’s very easy to customize it.
I have been using Spotlight to launch my applications for over a year now and it works perfectly every single time.
I type “wo” and Word just shows up at my Top Hit.
I type “pho” and Photoshop just shows up at my Top Hit.
I type “sa” and Safari shows up.
I type “ma” and Mail shows up.
All at the Top Hit. I don’t have to hope that I have typed enough letters before pressing RETURN because the results appear instantly and they are always at the “Top Hit”.
I typed “tr” and “Transmit” appeared instantly.
I typed “li” and “linotype fontexplorer x” appeared instantly. I added “g” and “lightroom” appeared. Had I had to press RETURN, I would have typed “li” and then RETURN and not received the application I wanted and then I would have had to type some more and press RETURN again. For me, Spotlight’s method works really well.
I typed “po” and “Microsoft PowerPoint” appeared instantly in “Top Hit”.
I typed “go” and “Google Earth” appeared. I added “l” and “Adobe GoLive” appeared.
In regards to the menus, I don’t understand the need for a small widget that gives me access to my applications. I prefer methods that utilize my screen real estate.
I don’t see why it’s necessary. It’s not a huge deal to have your application launcher fill up much of the screen for a few seconds, but it’s better not to have it do that. I usually have a lot of things open, and it’s just easier to keep my train of thought when things aren’t constantly being obscured and revealed because of an oversized menu.
Hence the reason for something like Deskbar. You can launch an application without having to use the menus. Of course, even the worse case scenario for launchers in the GNOME menu puts them three levels deep. It doesn’t take up 20% of the screen space, even when fully expanded.
I see some use for it, and I’ve played around with Quicksilver (the best implementation in my opinion), but having something on the first or second level of a menu to click on is easier for me than opening a menu, typing something, and picking a result.
In the case of application launchers designed in this manner, the “launch” function should be automatic. You shift to the search interface, type the name of the application you want, and click enter. Very quick. Probably on-par with finding the right entry in a crowded menu, if you’re a fast typist. It’s certainly less confusing.
I probably use the mouse a lot more than you do, though. Unless I’m posting on a forum, typing in an address, or renaming something, I don’t touch it a whole lot.
I wouldn’t characterize myself as a ‘keyboard user’, but I probably do use it more than most people.
I would rather deal with actual files than a folder full of shortcuts. It’s the same reason why I thought Windows 3.1’s interface was pathetic: adding too many abstractions just makes things more confusing. Ever wonder how many Windows users have tried to delete programs by removing their entries from the Start menu? I’ve seen it more than a few times.
GNOME solves this through the use of ‘Launchers’. They’re a type of shortcut, but they don’t act the same way as ‘normal’ shortcuts (they’re there specifically to perform an action, rather than just point to a file). Especially when they’re in a menu or on the panel.
When I’m in the Apple menu with my Applications folder showing, I know that everything I’m looking at is the actual file being launched, and I can just let go of the mouse over a folder to go into the Finder and mess with something.
That works for OS X, but it would be confusing for new users on Windows or Linux. *Especially* on Linux, where application installation is usually handled by a package manager.
Hence the reason for something like Deskbar. You can launch an application without having to use the menus. Of course, even the worse case scenario for launchers in the GNOME menu puts them three levels deep. It doesn’t take up 20% of the screen space, even when fully expanded.
The GNOME menus aren’t bad for size; my remarks on that were more directed towards Windows, where the Start Menu often turns into rows of menus filling the entire screen, and the base-level menu has more than enough empty space.
In the case of application launchers designed in this manner, the “launch” function should be automatic. You shift to the search interface, type the name of the application you want, and click enter. Very quick. Probably on-par with finding the right entry in a crowded menu, if you’re a fast typist. It’s certainly less confusing.
They have some use, but I wouldn’t want to rely on them (they’re not perfect, either). One definite advantage I see is that users can build muscle memory with the key combinations, much like a well-designed menu system. If a UI feature allows muscle memory to build up, then it gets a much higher ranking on my list.
GNOME solves this through the use of ‘Launchers’. They’re a type of shortcut, but they don’t act the same way as ‘normal’ shortcuts (they’re there specifically to perform an action, rather than just point to a file). Especially when they’re in a menu or on the panel.
I like GNOME’s implementation of this better than anyone else’s, but I would still rather deal with the actual files.
That works for OS X, but it would be confusing for new users on Windows or Linux. *Especially* on Linux, where application installation is usually handled by a package manager.
All I can really say for this is that people who switch to the Mac OS take up the responsibility of shifting to its way of doing things. If Apple designed the Mac OS entirely around the purpose of making Windows users comfortable, then it would just be Windows with a custom skin, and then what would be the point of having a Mac OS? Handling the actual files, in their actual location in the filesystem is one of the core design tenets of the Mac OS. The reason Mac OS exists is because Apple still thinks it can offer a better OS than Windows or Linux, so the point that it’s different from them isn’t a bad thing.
Can you show me a screenshot, Kuaidang, of Spotlight returning the “system.framwork” folder?
No, because we were talking about Quicksilver not Spotlight.
When I type “sys” and don’t have to press RETURN and hope I’ve typed enough characters to get the results I want (I can see them instantly as I type, which is great)
1. You can’t launch and app by typing then hitting return. All it does is launch the “Show All” window. You have to wait for Spotlight to return the results then arrow down and press return.
2. Spotlight is far from instant. Sometimes the search-as-you type works well and often it doesn’t. Typing “sys” first returns a few results then a few seconds later the entire results list jumps when the new results come in. And it doesn’t matter how many times you use that same search, it doesn’t immediately cache it or save it in any way (unless you don’t delete the letters from the search box). It still takes a noticable amount of seconds to do that search. Here’s a fun one… type “garageband” into the spotlight window and count how many times it changes the results list before it finishes. Now delete one letter.. it should change the list at least 3 times. Delete one more letter.. 3 more times.. and I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen a spinning beachball during a spotlight search. Or do that Garageband search by adding a letter instead of subtracting them… spotlight doesn’t filter the current search results when you add a letter, it reruns the entire search… which is why the list reorders itself two or three times after every letter.
I type “ma” and Mail shows up.
Interesting, b/c I get this:
All at the Top Hit. I don’t have to hope that I have typed enough letters before pressing RETURN because the results appear instantly and they are always at the “Top Hit”.
That’s because you can’t use it that way. If you already know from experience that “ma” gives you Mail then why wouldn’t you just hit “ma"+ down arrow+return as fast as you can? Because spotlight doesn’t allow you to do that. When I type it as fast as I can the “down arrow” doesn’t register because Mail hasn’t shown up in the results yet… so I get a Spotlight window… useless.
I typed “li” and “linotype fontexplorer x” appeared instantly. I added “g” and “lightroom” appeared. Had I had to press RETURN, I would have typed “li” and then RETURN and not received the application I wanted and then I would have had to type some more and press RETURN again. For me, Spotlight’s method works really well.
Actually you would have gotten the all results window not linotype. You need to hit down arrow then return to launch any apps. But Vista’s method can do that also. you can type something then wait and see what the results are just like Spotlight… but if you know the proper letters to type… like you say you do for Mail, Safari and Photoshop then you don’t have to wait… with Spotlight you have no choice. If you get a spinning beachball then you have to wait. If you know you want the second or third item in the list then you have to wait for them to show up… with Vista you can make the keystrokes, that you already know you have to make anyway, even before the menu or search results appear.
You can make Spotlight one key if you want. You either ignore this or you keep forgetting.
i tried it but all the good keyboard shotcuts are taken especially if you use FCP, Avid or any other “professional-level” apps (Office, Excel etc.). F1 works okay until I boot into a pro app.
And launching the app isn’t just one button either… you need to arrow or mouse to it first.
I would rather deal with actual files than a folder full of shortcuts.
I completely agree.
so you rather deal with the Mac filesystem than spotlight (which is really just a bunch of shortcuts or another abstraction… seems quite contrary to what you mentioned earlier.
I don’t find Spotlight to be a very good application launcher. Although you can set it to activate with one key, you must arrow down twice to get past “Show All” and “Top Hit.” If you want to launch applications using the keyboard, I would suggest Quicksilver, which doesn’t require pressing as many keys and returns results more biased toward application launching. I don’t like using any of these implementations 100% of the time, but I find Quicksilver to be a good supplement to my Apple menu. It also takes up no screen space when not in use, in keeping with my belief that information should only show itself when it’s useful, if possible.
You can’t launch and app by typing then hitting return
I didn’t say I could. I said I don’t have to press RETURN to get results. You use to admit that the instant results was better. Now you don’t since Vista doesn’t do it.
Spotlight is far from instant
The Top Hit is for me. Before I type the “t” in “photoshop”, Adobe Photoshop is there for me.
Typing “sys” first returns a few results then a few seconds later the entire results list jumps when the new results come in.
System Preference is there instantly.
type “garageband” into the spotlight window and count how many times it changes the results list before it finishes. Now delete one letter.. it should change the list at least 3 times. Delete one more letter.. 3 more times.. and I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen a spinning beachball during a spotlight search.
I don’t have Garageband.
Do this, type a couple of letters and get the classic Windows Media Player without knowing what the 8.3 name is.
Interesting, b/c I get this:
A question mark?
I did a simple thing in Spotlight Preferences and told it to put Applications at the top and I get Mail.
What do I get with “ou” in Vista? Outlook? No. I had to type “ou” RETURN then “out” RETURN to get “Outlook”.
Actually you would have gotten the all results window not linotype.
Yes, more is better unless it’s OS X that has more than Windows, right Kuaidang?
I get it right at the top. It’s called “Top Hit”.
But Vista’s method can do that also. you can type something then wait and see what the results are just like Spotlight
Weren’t you just criticizing waiting for results? Ha!
but if you know the proper letters to type… like you say you do for Mail, Safari and Photoshop then you don’t have to wait
That’s the point, I don’t have to know the proper 8.3 letters or any of that.
I’m simply typing the name of the application I use and it appears by the time I get to the second letter. I don’t have to memorize shortcuts or any of that nonsense. The name of Photoshop is “Adobe Photoshop CS2”. I type “pho” and it appears. It’s just smart. I’m not memorizing shortcuts here.
If you get a spinning beachball then you have to wait
I don’t see a spinning beach ball in Spotlight. There is a spinning wheel with spokes in the Spotlight dialog box, but it’s still live, much like Vista as it returns results from a search.
If you know you want the second or third item in the list then you have to wait for them to show up…
The Top Hit works for me and it’s always the application I want and I don’t have to wait for the list to be fully populated to run it. The down arrow and mouse continue to work. You seem to be implying that there is a “beach ball of death” scenario. That’s inaccurate, if that’s what you are implying.
You said with Vista, if you want you can wait for more results. The same thing applies to Spotlight. The result I want is there before I type the third letter, but I can wait and see the list populate in a couple of seconds.
i tried it but all the good keyboard shotcuts are taken especially if you use FCP
LOL! That’s so weak, Kuaidang. I have it as a single button on my mouse.
What does F1 do in FCP? Nothing. You are making things up again.
You can customize those keys to anything you want in the system and in Final Cut Pro. Final Cut Pro doesn’t use F13 - F16, BTW, either.
so you rather deal with the Mac filesystem than spotlight
No, I’d rather use the Mac file system and an Applications folder than the Windows abstraction mentioned in the post I was replying to.
Although you can set it to activate with one key, you must arrow down twice to get past “Show All” and “Top Hit.”
