I don’t understand why I would want to reproduce the limits of the real world in the virtual world. It’s just stupid. It’s the reason I hate the Desktop Metaphor.

Flip3D versus Exposé says it all in this regard.

Mac fans were hoping for Apple displays in the future that would replicate the iPhone’s touch functionality. Seriously, who wants to use their fingers and have to move their arm/hand all over their 23"/30" monitor(s) to move things?

Yeah, I really need a table like this and I really need to make 3D models of my photographs and I really need to view my photos like Flip3D with one in front of the other, obscuring my view. I guess it’s easier to create sci-fi products that don’t really have much use to create the appearance that you are innovative versus making actually shipping products innovative.

Based off of Jeff Han’s multitouch technology, Microsoft has developed a new platform of computing, which they are calling Surface (codenamed “Milan").

When did Jeff Han come out with his multi-touch technology?  Microsoft started in 2001.

He presented it in 2006. As for when he started work, who knows. Who cares.

And it seems Apple is giving us this stupid rolodex view in the Finder too. Ugh. With Microsoft, we can forgive them because we just assume they can’t do it the right way because Apple has patented it. But why the heck do I want to view my file icons one at a time versus seeing 50 of them at once in...oh, I don’t know...Icon View?

And why is viewing things in Quick Look any better than Preview...or the application the file was made from? I don’t get that. I really don’t.

I have 100 motion backgrounds in a folder and I have to click on each one, one at a time, to see what they look like. How about giving me a preview icon of them in Icon View? That would be much more productive to me than this Color Flow nonsense. Apple’s own Pro Apps do this in their file browser (that don’t mirror the Finder side pane, but let’s not go there).

As for when he started work, who knows. Who cares.

People who read your blogs, no point reading any further if it won’t be accurate in the first place.  Hope that helps.

And it seems Apple is giving us this stupid rolodex view in the Finder too. Ugh. With Microsoft, we can forgive them because we just assume they can’t do it the right way because Apple has patented it. 

Are you sure Apple has a patent on it and not just a patent application?  Several companies have Exposé clones on the market and Microsoft has one that comes with the Mouse suite called Instant Viewer.

http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandk eyboard/features/instantviewer.mspx

Flip3D versus Exposé says it all in this regard.

Flip3D actually works extremely well for people who like to keep their hands on the keyboard as opposed to those who are more mouse oriented.  Normally, I use ALT-Tab but sometimes when I need a much larger view to tell the windows apart I use Flip3D instead.

Unlike Exposé, Flip3d maintains a logical window order and is designed to be efficiently used through the keyboard.  On my notebooks it’s a pain in the ass to keep switching between the touchpad and the keyboard to use Exposé effectively (because the keyboard use of it is very lacking).

Overall Flip3D/Alt-tab >> Exposé

Yeah, I really need a table like this and I really need to make 3D models of my photographs and I really need to view my photos like Flip3D with one in front of the other, obscuring my view. I guess it’s easier to create sci-fi products that don’t really have much use to create the appearance that you are innovative versus making actually shipping products innovative.

Maybe you didn’t RTFA but Microsoft said this is a product for commercial use i.e. hotels, resturants, science museums.  It’s not designed to be a productivity increaser for the home computer user.  It’s designed to be cool and interesting, which it is.

I could definitely see lots of cool games and fun applications that could entertain people. In the right hands this thing could become the next platform for a hit arcade game (think: Dance Dance Revolution).

Are you sure Apple has a patent on it and not just a patent application?  Several companies have Exposé clones on the market and Microsoft has one that comes with the Mouse suite called Instant Viewer.

So you are saying Microsoft chose to implement their version in a (using your own words) “stupid” way?

Normally, I use ALT-Tab but sometimes when I need a much larger view to tell the windows apart I use Flip3D instead.

Yes, both are flawed. ALT TAB is flawed because it’s not big enough (as you admit) and Flip3D is flawed because you can only see them fully one at a time and are required to page through, which is less productive and less efficient than Exposé.

You say there are clones of Exposé and you claime that Microsoft has one that comes with a mouse. Question - why are they cloning Exposé and not Flip3D if Flip3D is so good?

Unlike Exposé, Flip3d maintains a logical window order and is designed to be efficiently used through the keyboard.

1. Flip3D is useless in most applications I use since they are MDI.

2. Flip3D’s order is logical but not useful. I don’t have to memory chronological order for every single work session I have (because the order changes each time I work on my computer based on whatever I launched at that time).

3. Exposé doesn’t need to order the screens since it’s showing them all at once. They move to the closest spot that window is located and you can see them move there from their starting position.

4. You shouldn’t debate things you don’t know anything about. Exposé can be completely controlled by the keyboard and you can reassign their shortcuts. You think pressing ALT TAB is more efficient than using the mouse? Fine, how about just the OPTION key? Or the COMMAND key?

Frankly, if you are going to engage in a “which OS has better keyboard control” debate, I think you are going to lose. It’s one of the things Ars loves about OS X.

But I use the mouse all the time in a graphic user interface - go figure - and I have Exposé assigned to a button on my multi-button mouse.

It’s funny how Windows zealots bash the Mac for years for coming with a mouse with only one button, now using the mouse at all is passé.

Let me ask you a simple question - why is your photo management application showing you several photo thumbnails at the same time instead of in a 3D rolodex?

Anyone who argues that Flip3D is as useful as Exposé has no credibility at all and is immediately exposed as a Windows zealot.

Maybe you didn’t RTFA but Microsoft said this is a product for commercial use i.e. hotels, resturants, science museums.  It’s not designed to be a productivity increaser for the home computer user.  It’s designed to be cool and interesting, which it is.

Yeah, Strata has a plug-in for their 3D application that does the same thing. Yawn.

Microsoft is really good at showing “tech demos” of features that aren’t solutions to common problems. I remember you guys showing a silly demonstration of a photo application that was going to be for Vista (like most things showed back then, it didn’t get included with Vista) that was in 3D and had rows of photos going back in Z space. We had a lengthy debate over the usefulness of it.

To this day, zealots like LordDaMan are showing tech demos by Microsoft to try to impress us with their innovations. These are tech demos that will never be useful for most consumers out there and they don’t improve Windows at all, which is what I personally think needs a lot of attention.

You say there are clones of Exposé and you claime that Microsoft has one that comes with a mouse. Question - why are they cloning Exposé and not Flip3D if Flip3D is so good?

Because Windows already has Flip3D?  It’s a major selling point of Vista obviously.  Have you ever used Vista before?

Yes, both are flawed. ALT TAB is flawed because it’s not big enough (as you admit) and Flip3D is flawed because you can only see them fully one at a time and are required to page through, which is less productive and less efficient than Exposé.

Exposé has numerous flaws as well.  One of those flaws is the lack of any kind of consistient organization, another is that the windows get smaller (even smaller than Windows ALT-tab) as the number of windows gets larger, another is the inability to fit in with Mac conventions like minimizing to the dock and hiding, and yet another is its horrible keyboard access.  MAny of these flaws are remedied by Spaces but go unsolved in Tiger.

Flip3D is flawed because you can only see them fully one at a time and are required to page through, which is less productive and less efficient than Exposé

Flip3d is used when you WANT to page through windows.  Even with Exposé there are many times when the windows are too small and similar to differenciate.  IMO it’s even worse ont he Mac because many apps lose their defining characteristics (pallates and such) when they aren’t fronted and therefore look very much like other apps.  For instance, a backgrounded Photoshop window can look almost exactly like a Preview window.

So you are saying Microsoft chose to implement their version in a (using your own words) “stupid” way?

Their version of what?  Flip3D or Instant Viewer?  I haven’t used instant viewer for more than a few minutes.  Flip3D works great.

1. Flip3D is useless in most applications I use since they are MDI

So how you you get around the MDI apps on the Mac?
FYI, CTRL-TAB usually switches within MDI apps.

2. Flip3D’s order is logical but not useful. I don’t have to memory chronological order for every single work session I have (because the order changes each time I work on my computer based on whatever I launched at that time).

You should use Vista before you make such ignorant comments.  The taskbar orders it’s windows based on what you launched and when (when grouping is turned off) but Flip3D does not.

3. Exposé doesn’t need to order the screens since it’s showing them all at once. They move to the closest spot that window is located and you can see them move there from their starting position.

Sometimes they move to that position and sometimes they don’t.  With Exposé (F9) you can rarely accurately predict the exact size and exact position of any window.

4. You shouldn’t debate things you don’t know anything about. Exposé can be completely controlled by the keyboard and you can reassign their shortcuts. You think pressing ALT TAB is more efficient than using the mouse? Fine, how about just the OPTION key? Or the COMMAND key?

Learn to read. At no point did I say Exposé can not be controlled via the keyboard.  I said it’s keyboard access is not efficient nor was Exposé designed with keyboard access in mind.  (note that I said Exposé’s keyboard access was lacking not non-exisitent).  Why would one want to use just the option key or command key to invoke Exposé?  I use those keys hundreds of times a day already and would be accidentally invoking it all day.  besides, you still can’t move through the selections and activate windows in Exposé with those keys so you’re still jumping all over the keyboard whereas you are not with ALT_TAB/FLip3D.

Frankly, if you are going to engage in a “which OS has better keyboard control” debate, I think you are going to lose. It’s one of the things Ars loves about OS X.

OS X does have better keyboard shortcuts but better keyboard control over windows switching it does not.  Unhook your mouse from you OS X machine and get through a normal work day.  If you’re working in those on a Mac you’ll pull your hair out before lunch. 

But I use the mouse all the time in a graphic user interface - go figure - and I have Exposé assigned to a button on my multi-button mouse.

Exposé has far superior mouse access, no question about it.

Let me ask you a simple question - why is your photo management application showing you several photo thumbnails at the same time instead of in a 3D rolodex?

Who says it doesn’t?  Have you ever used Picasa’s timeline view?

Anyone who argues that Flip3D is as useful as Exposé has no credibility at all and is immediately exposed as a Windows zealot.

You still can’t refute the massive advantage in keyboard access that Flip3D/ALT-Tab have over Exposé and you keep ignoring the fact that ALT_tab and Flip3D complement each other to be superior to Exposé (my point) in an attempt to imply I said something I did not.  Then you think that anyone with a different opinion that you is obviously a zealot.. idiocy at its highest level.

Yeah, Strata has a plug-in for their 3D application that does the same thing. Yawn

It creates a multi-touch table?  or does wireless data transfer?

Microsoft is really good at showing “tech demos” of features that aren’t solutions to common problems. I remember you guys showing a silly demonstration of a photo application that was going to be for Vista (like most things showed back then, it didn’t get included with Vista) that was in 3D and had rows of photos going back in Z space. We had a lengthy debate over the usefulness of it.

3D Microsoft Photo app = Photosynth or Live Maps.
No one claimed Phodeo would be apart of Vista because no one even knew that Vista would have a photo app until around Beta 1.  We hoped it would be part of Vista but I thought it would be a separate app in the “Vista Wave”.

To this day, zealots like LordDaMan are showing tech demos by Microsoft to try to impress us with their innovations. These are tech demos that will never be useful for most consumers out there and they don’t improve Windows at all, which is what I personally think needs a lot of attention.

How about that fast search tech demo from 2003 (that the entire industry copied including Apple)? Or the Ribbon tech demo?  Or all the DX10 tech demo’s?  Or all the MCE tech demos from 2000?  Or the Avalon/Expression tech demo that Apple pretty much copied with Core Animation at the WWDC?  Or the iHD tech demos?  Glass, Previous Docs, WPF/E (Netflix and Northface were awesome)???

All improved Windows quite a bit and are pretty useful as well.  In fact, the rest of the industry basically copied much of what they are doing in many cases.

Kuaidang, are you banned? I’m curious why you keep using different names.

One of those flaws is the lack of any kind of consistient organization

Explain. How would you organize the screens?

that the windows get smaller (even smaller than Windows ALT-tab) as the number of windows gets larger

This is a very stupid argument.

First off, ALT TAB can’t show you as many as Exposé at once because they are in a row whereas Exposé uses your entire screen.

Secondly, of course they get smaller as you have more because it’s showing them to you all at once.

another is the inability to fit in with Mac conventions like minimizing to the dock and hiding

Yes, Kuaidang, you’ve used this argument before, but you are still wrong. Why would I hide Safari and then want it to show up in Exposé? I hid it! Why would I want minimized windows to also show up in Exposé? I minimized it to put it away!

These are not flaws, these are examples of useful behavior. If you want a window to be a part of Exposé, don’t hide/minimize it! The whole point of hiding it is to hide it, obviously.

Flip3d is used when you WANT to page through windows

Except for windows in MDI applications, which is Photoshop, Flash, Illustrator, InDesign, Premiere...it’s useless most of the time.

I never want to page through manually my windows. If I did want to do that on OS X, I can press CNTRL F4 and cycle through every active window. And it cycles through a full size too.

Even with Exposé there are many times when the windows are too small and similar to differenciate. 

Which is why ALT TAB is useless most of the time and you have to then switch to Flip3D to manually cycle through to find the one you want, unless it’s MDI, in which you have to switch to the application first and then cycle through the documents in that application.

For instance, a backgrounded Photoshop window can look almost exactly like a Preview window.

Yeah, Flip3D includes a lot of crap that has nothing to do with the document I’m looking for.

If you want to switch between applications, use SHIFT TAB in Exposé or CMND TAB. If you want to find a specific document, you know what it looks like and you use Exposé. Unlike Flip3D, I can narrow Exposé to just the application I’m working in.

How do I switch between multiple Photoshop documents in Flip3D? Oh yeah, I can’t.

So how you you get around the MDI apps on the Mac?

Yes, Kuaidang, I know you are going into applications that have tabs and how those “documents” aren’t in a Window. This is the same with Windows and on top of that you have MDI applications missing in action.

The issue here is Photoshop documents are windows in OS X and I can press F10 (or my mouse button) and see all of my active Photoshop documents at once and click on the one I want. This great functionality isn’t in Windows and Flip3D is moot for this function.

If I have Photoshop, Illustrator, Flash open and I press F9 (or click on another mouse button), all of those active documents from those applications are presented to me and I can switch between them easily. I can’t in Vista.

FYI, CTRL-TAB usually switches within MDI apps.

Right, Flip3D is useless for most of my applications! Exposé isn’t.

The taskbar orders it’s windows based on what you launched and when (when grouping is turned off) but Flip3D does not.

You should learn to read. I said based on whatever I launched (what I have running), not based on the order of the launch. My point was there is no muscle memory involved. It’s different every session.

This is what I want you to do, I want you to explain to all of us the logic of the order of Flip3D windows to illustrate how simple and easy it is. This is going to be good. Go ahead. Explain it.

Sometimes they move to that position and sometimes they don’t.  With Exposé (F9) you can rarely accurately predict the exact size and exact position of any window.

Why do I need to predict it at all? I see the windows in front of me and they move to the location they end up.

Right now, I have TextEdit, Safari and Mail open. I press F9, I see them move to their positions. Why do I need to predict anything? It’s clear which is which.

Learn to read. At no point did I say Exposé can not be controlled via the keyboard.  I said it’s keyboard access is not efficient nor was Exposé designed with keyboard access in mind.

Of course it was designed with keyboard access in mind. The default triggers for it are keys on the keyboard! LOL

note that I said Exposé’s keyboard access was lacking not non-exisitent

OK, what’s lacking?

Why would one want to use just the option key or command key to invoke Exposé?  I use those keys hundreds of times a day already and would be accidentally invoking it all day.

You can make it anything you want. You are really exposing your ignorance here.

besides, you still can’t move through the selections and activate windows in Exposé with those keys so you’re still jumping all over the keyboard whereas you are not with ALT_TAB/FLip3D

Ah, so now you are switching your argument from having to switch between the mousepad and keyboard to “jumping all over the keyboard”.

Listen, you don’t know what you are talking about. You can cycle through active windows in OS X by pressing SHIFT F4 and you can customize that keyboard shortcut.

X does have better keyboard shortcuts but better keyboard control over windows switching it does not. 

Open up Keyboard & Mouse system preference:

Move focus to the menu bar
Move focus to the Dock
Move focus to the active window or next window
Move focus to the window toolbar
Move focus to the floating window
Move focus to next window in active application
Move between controls or text boxes and lists
Move focus to the window drawer
Move focus to status menus in the menu bar

Have you ever used Picasa’s timeline view?

No. Are you saying Picasa doesn’t show you multiple thumbnails of photos at the same time?

You still can’t refute the massive advantage in keyboard access that Flip3D/ALT-Tab have over Exposé and you keep ignoring the fact that ALT_tab and Flip3D complement each other

When it comes to switching between documents, both are flawed:
ALT TAB is flawed because it gives you a very small selection that doesn’t include all the documents in most of the applications I use (MDI) and the thumbs are too small, even if you have a giant monitor.

WINDOWS Key TAB is flawed because it doesn’t include all of the documents in most of the applications I use (MDI applications) and it only shows you one full document at a time, which requires that I manually cycle through them.

Then you think that anyone with a different opinion that you is obviously a zealot

No, it’s when the opinion comes from people who never ever criticize their OS of choice.

Tiny thumbnails is bad in Exposé, but fine in ALT TAB. It’s this habit of yours of criticizing a behavior of OS X but touting the same behavior in Windows. You are one-sided and inconsistent with your criticisms. You actually stated that Flip3D was stupid, but now it’s part of Windows so you have to talk it up.

3D Microsoft Photo app = Photosynth or Live Maps

No, you aren’t paying attention.

How about that fast search tech demo from 2003 (that the entire industry copied including Apple)? Or the Ribbon tech demo?  Or all the DX10 tech demo’s?  Or all the MCE tech demos from 2000?  Or the Avalon/Expression tech demo that Apple pretty much copied with Core Animation at the WWDC?  Or the iHD tech demos?  Glass, Previous Docs, WPF/E (Netflix and Northface were awesome)???

Thanks, Kuaidang. We all know you think Apple (and now “the industry") copies Microsoft and Microsoft doesn’t copy anyone. We know you think Apple sits back and waits for a tech demo from Microsoft and then starts work on it and ships it at a fraction of the time Microsoft does it (if it all).

But my points in this thread were about how duplicating the limitations of the real world in the virtual world is stupid. That’s why I brought up the Rolodex Flip3D and also criticized the Mac OS.