I saw this in Wal-Mart a few days ago, they were selling them early, that’s in Laramie, WY so nobody noticed.  They were behind a glass case though so I didn’t even put a shred of a thought into buying one.

I guess we will no longer hear from PC fans about how Apple competes with their developers and Microsoft doesn’t.

“Developers Developers Developers Developers�

You do realize that the Steve Balmer quote is talking about “software developers”, right?

People are focusing on how this affects Apple. How would you like to be the maker of the Rio or Zen and competing with a company that is willing to lose hundreds of millions of dollars to take over a marketplace?

Didn’t the maker of the rio die off last year?  Creative, Sandisk and several other companies have said they don’t mind the Microsoft competiton at all.  Toshiba actually makes the Zune so they are probably thrilled by it.

Remember, many of these companies like Toshiba and Sandisk actually make major components for the iPod.  I read somewhere that one of the original iPod demos/prototypes was partly sponsored by Toshiba as a way to get people to buy their hard drives. I believe Sandisk is the supplier of the flash for the current Nano and Shuffle… So I imagine this is a similar situation.

Creative actually created a player for Dell (among others) so it’s not like they are not used to the situation either.

Anything Microsoft or Apple can do to expand the market will help those companies in the long run.

Apple does have the most to lose though… the Zune is surprisingly popular.  All the major stores have it on display in their ads.

Same difference; developers are developers are developers are developers....YES!

If you say so.  Mac Fans point was that I (or someone else) made a point that Apple has recently killed off some of their developers (products) and Microsoft didn’t.  Of course, being that the statement came from Mac Fan you can count on him leaving out the crucial piece of context so he can make an arguement.

I specifically said small and independent developers in the context of Apple and Microsoft.  You know the one’s that made LightswitchX, Konfabulator, Watson etc.

Until we see the Zune take out iRiver or Archos then their is really no comparison.  Even then one could make the case that iRiver and Archos (among other hardware manufacturers) aren’t nearly as “small and independent” as the makers of LightswitchX, konfabulator, and Watson.

furthermore, the point was that Apple did their damage by doing a large photo copy job on the small developers product then including it with the OS… and thereby giving it instant market dominance.  Microsoft isn’t really doing that with the Zune they aren’t bundling the zune with some other product to give it market dominance. 

If they start shipping Zunes with Xbox 360’s then he might have a case… but right now… as usual… he doesn’t.

You do realize that the Steve Balmer quote is talking about “software developers�, right?

No, I didn’t, and it doesn’t at all refute or affect my point. Software or hardware, how does that change my point?

Didn’t the maker of the rio die off last year? 

http://www.sonicblue.com/rioaudio/default.a sp?cat=35

Toshiba actually makes the Zune so they are probably thrilled by it.

Great for them. How about all the developers of competing players?

Creative actually created a player for Dell (among others) so it’s not like they are not used to the situation either

So you are saying Creative makes the Zune?

Anything Microsoft or Apple can do to expand the market will help those companies in the long run.

You certainly didn’t say that when the many times in the past you would harp on Apple for competing with developers.

Apple does have the most to lose though

Of course, they dominate the market.

the Zune is surprisingly popular

Not with reviewers.

All the major stores have it on display in their ads.

Of course. It’s Microsoft. The same player was out before under a different name, right? It didn’t get as much attention.

If you say so.  Mac Fans point was that I (or someone else) made a point that Apple has recently killed o f some of their developers (products) and Microsoft didn’t.  Of course, being that the statement came fr m Mac Fan you can count on him leaving out the crucial piece of context so he can make an arguemen

I specifically said small and independent developers in the context of Apple and Microsoft.  You know t e one’s that made LightswitchX, Konfabulator, Watson et

Is this still Kuaidang?

I wasn’t pointing fingers at any specific person at all. I was pointing my finger at a whole group of people, really. I’ve heard that criticism of Apple for a long time from many people including you, UnDunn, LordDaMan, etc.

So your point is Microsoft doesn’t at all compete with smaller developers, only the larger companies that make MP3 players and media center extenders...AOL, Netscape, MySpace, music stores...?

Ah, so Vista doesn’t at all affect Konfabulator or Stardock or any other small developer? LOL! So bundling movie, DVD, photo software into Windows doesn’t affect smaller developers? Microsoft doesn’t photo copy other developers and include it with their OS? LOL!

Don’t be so freaking transparent.

Kuaidang, you still have no credibility here. You argue both sides of any issue all the time. You are wrong on this site all the time, because of your extreme bias and non-objectivity.

Intel Macs won’t help Apple’s sales?
Leopard won’t be fully 64 bit?
Apple is switching to NT?
“It will take years before Mactel is worth buying?”
You don’t see Intel processors being any faster than the dual core G5 or PPC iMacs?
AMD is mopping up Intel?
Apple would have been better off staying with Freescale and IBM?

This one is priceless:

Apple will get fed up with pirated X86 eating into their sales and all the complaints coming from people who see Apple offering sub-par specs (and now they can’t blame the chip manufacturer), their price protection will take a major hit, profits will slide, and they’ll quietly start pushing PPC based Macs more than Intel based ones.

and this

My guess is that the Mini, eMac, and iBook all get Celeron’s, the PowerBooks, and iMac’s get Pentium’s and the PowerMac gets the Xeon.  One high-end PB and iMac will have dual-core as will the PowerMac but nothing else.

I could go on and on and on.

Well, I won’t be buying a Zune. It’s not compatible with my OS...Windows Vista.

I’m in the market for an iPod, I need to find a place to buy the damn thing though.

You do realize that the Steve Balmer quote is talking about “software developers�, right?

Are you talking about the squirting photos from a brown zune comment?

I bought an iPod.  Wal-Mart wouldn’t let me buy the display model and they kept trying to push me to wait for it or buy one of the Zunes.  I bought a 2GB nano instead.  Very nice.  It’s more than I thought it would be.

You mean more features? More expensive?

Congrats. New toys are cool. Toys!

I got a new Core Duo 2 Mac Book last week - 1 gig RAM, 2 Ghz Core Duo 2, 80 gig HD $1,299.

I’m running Windows in Parallels Desktop on it. The latest version of it automates the entire installation including getting the network and Internet working in Windows, etc. It’s very, very fast. You can copy/paste between Windows and OS X, etc. Very cool stuff.

I won’t ever buy another Windows PC again.

I mean that I got more iPod than I though I would get.

Zune’s Big Innovation: Viral DRM!

The DRM Virus Is Spreading - A Pandemic May Be Near!

People are focusing on how this affects Apple. How would you like to be the maker of the Rio or Zen and competing with a company that is willing to lose hundreds of millions of dollars to take over a marketplace?

That’s what the antitrust laws should protect from. They should work better now that the Democrats have won a lot of control recently.

I got a new Core Duo 2 Mac Book last week - 1 gig RAM, 2 Ghz Core Duo 2, 80 gig HD $1,299.

I’m drooling. The MacBook just lacks a proper graphics-card. With that it would be perfect, on top of my synthesizers too, the pro costs much more than what I want to pay for a Mac right now.

The Democrats don’t control the Justice Department and even if they did, I don’t see them splitting Microsoft up either. And if you split them into an OS company, an Office suite company, a entertainment company...how are you going to forbid the OS company from making another MP3 player? That OS company, and office suite company, will make billions in profit every quarter just the same.

In regards to the gaming console market, Microsoft isn’t losing nearly as much on the hardware sales as Sony is. Microsoft could afford to sell that 360 at $99 and really stick it to Sony. Hell, they could probably give the damn thing away for free and point to ink jet printers as a precedent if they get in a lawsuit. Microsoft charges for Xbox Live. Sony’s service is free.

My Mac Book is sweet. The 1 gig of RAM makes a difference, BTW. I don’t play any 3D games or do media production on this thing, so I don’t care at all about the graphics performance.

The new version of Parallels Desktop makes installation of Windows basically a single click (or two). It automates the configuration of Windows itself too (network), which is great. I have Office on it for embedding Flash into Powerpoint presentations for clients (uses DirectX, unlike Mac version) and I use it to test Web sites in IE.

I saw a Zune commercial on TV the other night. I’m trying really hard to be objective, but it sucked total ass. I’ve hammered Apple’s commercials many times here, BTW. The Microsoft commercial is basically a bunch of weirdoes/hippies standing around spinning records on record players, IIRC, and the soundtrack of the commercial is some lounge/jazz track. I didn’t like it at all and I don’t know who they are appealing too - old hippies?

Something that has always bugged me about the Zune’s wireless capability is the fact that my changes of running into another person who owns a Zune on the train are really, really low. Who am I going to share with, 100 million iPod users? No. So if nobody buys the Zune, the sharing feature is moot. And how many people need to share out in the street and can’t go back to their computer (where they can share with any player)?

I think I read the Zune’s wireless capability doesn’t really do anything else yet. Is that right?

I would think Bluetooth abilities with cell phones and getting email from the WiFi at Starbucks would be compelling features. But don’t those features already exist in other devices from Microsoft’s “partners”?

<quote>You certainly didn’t say that when the many times in the past you would harp on Apple for competing with developers.</quote>

Since when did Apple taking on LightswitchX, Konfabulator, and Watson expand the market in any meaniful way?  The Mac market is 20+ years old.  It’s mature and developed.

The music player market is about 6 years old.  They still aren’t selling as many portable digital music players as they are portable CD players.  So they have a lot of growth to do in that market yet.

<quote>Ah, so Vista doesn’t at all affect Konfabulator or Stardock or any other small developer?</quote>

No it doesn’t affect Konfabulator because Konfabulator doesn’t exist.  Yahoo Widgets, on the other had do exist, but no one in their right mind would call yahoo a “small developer”.

Microsoft partnered with Stardock for Vista’s sidebar.  Ever notice that Microsoft didn’t release a toolkit to build gadgets and that Stardock announced their toolkit for gadgets the day Microsoft re-announced the sidebar?  Ever notice how the Stardock guys said they already knew gadgets and the sidebar were coming back to Longhorn/Vista before it was publically announced?

If you knew anything about the situation then you’d know what you just said is dumb.

<quote>So bundling movie, DVD, photo software into Windows doesn’t affect smaller developers?</quote>

What smaller developers?  The market leader for movie and DVD software is Pinnacle… which is now part of Avid.  I don’t think I need to explain how big Avid is to you.

The big players in low-level photo software are Google (Picasa), Adobe (Photoshop Album and Elements), and Corel.  Maybe you could throw HP in there too because they ship photo software with all their PC’s.  None of those are small developers ont he scale of Arlo Rose (for instance).

Furthermore, every OEM has a choice to not include Microsoft’s bundled software in their Vista installs.  Consumers also have the choice to get a version of Vista without those software programs too.

Damn, it looks like you have no legs to stand on once again.

<quote>No, I didn’t, and it doesn’t at all refute or affect my point. Software or hardware, how does that change my point?</quote>

It doesn’t because you didn’t have a point.  All you were doing is making a jab at MS.  I just think that if you’re going to do so that you could at least make the correct jab.

<quote>Of course. It’s Microsoft. The same player was out before under a different name, right? It didn’t get as much attention.</quote>

No, none has ever released the same player (the Zune) under a different name.

<quote>You are wrong on this site all the time, </quote>

Another dumb statement because half the things you listed weren’t even said on this site.

The “pushing PPC Macs” quote is idiotic for you to bring up considering Apple actually did something even worse to stop that from coming true: They rose prices.  Remember, back when Mac Mini’s could be had for $499 and low-end Mac notebooks went for $999?  Yeah, those were the good ole days.  Not to mention the fact that they threw out the dedicated memory in their video cards as well.

The last quote shows your stupidity to a T:

1. The iBook and eMac never even made it through the Intel transition.  Instead of outfitting them with Celerons or Core Sols’s they just discontinued them altogther… which is even worse than my prediction as they raised the entry prices too.
2.  Not only did the PowerMac get the Xeon but Apple waited a long time until they got the specific Xeon processor they wanted.
3. The Powerbook equivenlent (MacBook Pro) and the iMac did get the “Pentium” of the Core line: the Core Duo.
4. The Macbook is basically a cross between the iBook line and the 12 inch Powerbook but doesn’t adequtely replace either because it’s more expensive than the former and less powerful (in terms of GPU) than the latter.  Therefore it doesn’t fit into or go against my statement at all.

So basically out of all that you can only say that I was wrong about Apple dropping the iBook and eMAc lines completely (from consumer purchase) and that I didn’t think Apple would go for a 30% price hike to put a Core Duo in the Mini.  Good Job! :rolleyes

And what’s even more telling is that the first three words in that quote are…

and just to harp on your stupidity some more…

Look at the staement about Intel procs not being faster than dual core G5’s.

Barefeats shows the Core Duo iMac not to be faster than the Dual Core G5:
http://www.barefeats.com/imcd2.html

That test uses a PM G5 config that was 2+ years old when the iMac Core Duo shipped.

And quotes from the article:
<quote>FINAL ANALYSIS
Though an improvement over the previous iMac, when it comes to running 3D games at high resolution and quality, the iMac Intel Core Duo 2.0GHz (20") is still not in the same league as a G5 Power Mac sporting a good graphics card.</quote>

<quote>We went shopping on eBay for a “Pre-Owned” Single-Core Dual G5/2.0 Power Mac and a pre-owned 20” Cinema and pre-owned Radeon X800 card. The total came to about the same price as a new iMac Core Duo 2.0. If you are an avid gamer, you might seriously consider a used or refurbished G5 Power Mac with a high end graphics card as a viable alternative to the new iMac Core Duo—especially if you already own a display. And if you already own a G5 Power Mac, consider upgrading your graphics card instead of trading it in on an Intel iMac.</quote>

And that doesn’t even consider any new G5 chips or the fact that many apps were not-universal and ran much faster on G5’s than Core Duo’s.

That’s the entire reason why Apple waited so long to move the PM over to Intel.

So again, the facts bear me out and the bullshit walks with you.

The Democrats don’t control the Justice Department and even if they did, I don’t see them splitting Microsoft up either.

Sadly I can’t disagree with that statement.

And if you split them into an OS company, an Office suite company, a entertainment company...how are you going to forbid the OS company from making another MP3 player? That OS company, and office suite company, will make billions in profit every quarter just the same.

Splitting MS that way would make no sense anyway.  Instead of one company with two monopolies like we have now there would be two companies with one monoploy each.  Office still wouldn’t be ported to Linux or whatever other bs MS haters are looking for and it would all just be pointless.

</b>In regards to the gaming console market, Microsoft isn’t losing nearly as much on the hardware sales as Sony is.</b>

According to the latest estimates, Microsoft is actually making money on the 360 right now (not including advertising and shipping costs).
http://www.isuppli.com/news/default.asp?id=6919

Given the crazy game attachement rates and Xbox live fees it would seem Microsoft isn’t doing so bad.

I think I read the Zune’s wireless capability doesn’t really do anything else yet. Is that right?

No.  It also has this awesome feature that allows it to fully discharge the battery extremely quickly. LOL!

Since when did Apple taking on LightswitchX, Konfabulator, and Watson expand the market in any meaniful way?  The Mac market is 20+ years old.  It’s mature and developed.

This is what you do. You try to change the subject. You don’t like the direction it was going, so now you are going to argue Microsoft’s stolen features expand the market and Apple’s doesn’t? Ha!

The issue is Apple and Microsoft both add features to their OS that steps on the feet of some developers - big, small doesn’t matter. You are the one here who is the zealot defending your precious Microsoft and actually trying to say to us with a straight face that Microsoft’s included features don’t affect their partners but Apple’s do. LOL!

Microsoft is selling the Zune. That competes with their partners - period.

I don’t know why you think it’s better that Microsoft only tries to kill off the big developers versus the smaller ones (in your mind). I don’t know what your point is there.

You obviously have never used the Mac OS before OS X if you think Sherlock 3 ripped off Watson. You haven’t used Sherlock 2 in OS 9, have you?

I already debunked your crap about Apple stealing the idea of little applications from Konfabulator complete with quotes from Apple software engineers back in the 80’s. Go back to that thread if you want to argue it some more. Another example of you arguing two sides—here you are arguing that Apple stole from Konfabulator, but you say Microsoft doesn’t steal their features because they thought of something like it years ago and did some prototypes and demonstrations…

LightswitchX is ALT TAB in Windows made for OS X. It’s funny how you don’t think Lightswitch is a rip-off of XP.

If you knew anything about the situation then you’d know what you just said is dumb.

No, you are dumb if you think there are no small developers affected by Microsoft adding features to their OS. That’s ludicrous. How large a developer is that Microsoft steps on is irrelevant.

Yahoo bought Konfabulator in 2005. When did Microsoft show pre-beta versions of gadgets? Before 2005.

What smaller developers?

Ulead. Others.

It’s funny how you talk about how many choices there are in the Windows world but now you are trying to sell us the idea that there are only a small handful of developers for Windows.

The big players in low-level photo software are Google (Picasa), Adobe (Photoshop Album and Elements), and Corel.  Maybe you could throw HP in there too because they ship photo software with all their PC’s.  None of those are small developers ont he scale of Arlo Rose (for instance).

Ah, so there are no small developers for Windows. Seriously?

You think Apple competes with Adobe but Microsoft doesn’t doing the same thing? LOL! No wait, with Apple, Adobe counts. With Microsoft, Adobe doesn’t count because they aren’t small enough to fit your weird argument.

Smaller developer affected by Vista:
http://www.xequte.com/

Smaller developer affected by Vista:
http://www.ulead.com/

http://www.photolightning.com/
http://www.arcsoft.com/products/photobase/
http://www.broderbund.com/

Are you kidding me? What small developers? There are tons of them for Windows! LOL!

Furthermore, every OEM has a choice to not include Microsoft’s bundled software in their Vista installs.  Consumers also have the choice to get a version of Vista without those software programs too.

You use to argue that Apple offering Final Cut Pro on their Web site was a huge unfair advantage they had. Now you are arguing that Microsoft actually including software in Windows does not affect the other developers. You now are making excuses saying that you can choose not to get the included features. Well, Kuaidang, people can choose not to buy Final Cut Studio. LOL!

It doesn’t because you didn’t have a point.  All you were doing is making a jab at MS… Mac Fans point was that I (or someone else) made a point that Apple has recently killed off some of their developers (products) and Microsoft didn’t. 

I didn’t make a point, but my point was what? LOL!

You made my point for me more than I ever could have, in this thread.

No, none has ever released the same player (the Zune) under a different name.

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/portable-med ia/toshiba-1089-cleared-by-fcc-looks-just-like-t he-zune-196644.php

Another dumb statement because half the things you listed weren’t even said on this site.

Ha! That was precious.

The “pushing PPC Macs� quote is idiotic for you to bring up considering Apple actually did something even worse to stop that from coming true

Again, this is you changing the subject when someone debunked your crap. Let’s look at your quote again:

Apple will get fed up with pirated X86 eating into their sales and all the complaints coming from peopl who see Apple offering sub-par specs (and now they can’t blame the chip manufacturer), their pric protection will take a major hit, profits will slide, and they’ll quietly start pushing PPC based Macs mor than Intel based ones

So your point is that didn’t come true because Apple rose their prices? So your logic is people do not care that Apple is offering sub-par specs because the prices are higher now? So Apple’s sales went up dramatically because they raised their prices? LOL!!!!!

Everyone reading this realizes how full of it you are.

The iBook and eMac never even made it through the Intel transition.

I’d say the Mac Book is the iBook, but you really have no point here. Your point was pirated versions of OS X running on X86 PCs not from Apple would eat into Apple’s profits so much, coupled with consumers thinking Macs had sub-par specs, that their sales would go down and Apple would revert back to PPC.

That last point about going back to PPC because of sub-par specs doesn’t even make sense given you’ve been arguing that PPC was sub-par compared to X86 for years. This is another example of you arguing two sides whenever it suits your current position.

There are tons of Windows developers. There are only a few.
PPC is slower than X86. PPC is faster.

Not only did the PowerMac get the Xeon but Apple waited a long time until they got the specific Xeon processor they wanted

So? What’s your point?

The Powerbook equivenlent (MacBook Pro) and the iMac did get the “Pentium� of the Core line: the Core Duo

Focus in on the Duo part of that and then go back to your quote about which Macs will get dual core.

The Macbook is basically a cross between the iBook line and the 12 inch Powerbook but doesn’t adequtely replace either because it’s more expensive than the former and less powerful (in terms of GPU) than the latter.  Therefore it doesn’t fit into or go against my statement at all.

Your statement was “One high-end PB and iMac will have dual-core as will the PowerMac b t nothing els”

Look at the staement about Intel procs not being faster than dual core G5’s.